4.12.11

"The Abolitionist Approach" Is Not Fit For Purpose.

In a recent very interesting Facebook discussion, Tim Gier wrote (in part, and perhaps it is unfair to extract this out - but I'm gonna anyway!), “I don’t accept that the property status of other animals necessarily entails harm towards them.”

[I began to write a response to Tim’s observation for the FB discussion - but then realised that I was writing a blog entry, so that is why I have decided to post it here instead. In addition, I have not written a blog entry for a while, so that’s my second excuse!]

So, here goes.

It seems to me that being an item of property is not good in terms of having your rights respected. When Gary Francione talks about this issue, he does so as a law professor and, therefore, often asks us to imagine a legal arena in which the interests of property are put up against the interests of property owners.

On a psychological level, I believe that animal advocates are hindered in terms of arguing against animal use because we are arguing for items of property and not about legal persons. While animal advocates may regard other animals as moral persons, society certainly does not. Therefore, it seems to me that, be it in the courtroom or wider society, having other animals moved from the “thing” side of the person/thing divide to the “person” side would be desirable.

Even so-called “companion animals,” who arguably come closest to being regarded as individual persons in society, are still things in law and (ultimately) are treated as things in society. This is why we have few and sometimes no issues about surgically altering them, controlling their sex lives, controlling their movements (including bowel movements) and having them "put to sleep” often when it suits us and not them.

The Francionian case against welfare reform in this respect revolves around the claim that reform does not challenge the property status of other animals and, therefore, does not address fundamental issues in human-nonhuman relations.

I agree. I think there is a lot of merit in Francione’s position about the property status of other animals. Whether the “problem” could be reduced or even eliminated by the claims that accompany abolitionist reforms would be something worth exploring but I doubt Francione is capable of rational discourse at this stage, and certainly not with Tim Gier.

I regard “The Abolitionist Approach” as pretty much a busted flush. It is not fit for purpose. However, I’m inclined to think that this is not because the approach is wrong in any - or certainly many - of its fundamentals; it is very much more about the delivery of the approach which has been an absolute disaster, and seems to be getting far worse, more dogmatic, and more shrill and hysterical in tone.

A general issue is the habit of animal advocates to use broad brush strokes to describe something sociologically and psychologically complex. This is another failing of “The Abolitionist Approach” since it seems to simultaneously suggest that the public are both stupid and not stupid. On the one hand, they are presented from an elitist position as cultural dupes and dopes who can be persuaded to do this and that, and buy this and that, by welfarist promotion of items and, on the other hand, they are depicted as far too clever to be so fooled.

The reality is likely to be that some people can be persuaded by the promotion of some “humane” item and see no need to further boycott animal products, while some others will see through the propaganda and still see the cruelty and rights violations therein, so to speak. It is also possible that, by thinking about the ethics of our use of other animals as a result of "humane" product promotion, people will open their hearts to animals for the first time and make adjustments in terms of their behaviour towards and consumption of other animals. Others will better respond to a clear "go vegan" message. I favour giving out, consistently, the latter message, even if I recognise other possibilities.

My own position is not to be as worried about the promotion of animal welfare by animal welfarists as “the abolitionists” are. I do not promote animal welfare reforms myself, I do not recommend, ever, that others do, and I do not recommend vegetarianism rather than veganism, or the consumption of “happy meat.” Due to my involvement with Animal Rights Zone (ARZone), it has recently been suggested that I am now a raving animal welfarist in favour of the welfare paradigm described above. I believe that one "abolitionist" recently called me, and others associated with ARZone, "vile."

My position is clear: animal welfarists do welfare, and what should be much more of a concern for “the abolitionists” is the fact that their arguments do not resonate with the vast majority of animal advocates.

Now, there are lots of structural reasons for that, which they rightly point out; it is true, for example, that animal welfarism is the dominant way by which society and the “animal rights movement” looks at human-nonhuman relations, and it is true that the large advocacy groups have too much of a say and they are not challenged enough. However, it seems to me to be a major concern that “the abolitionists” simply do not possess the educational skills with which to advance their own position. They do not talk with people, they talk at them. They are so sure that their position is 100% correct, that they cannot cope with the mildest form of questioning. Speak back and one is accused of being both “morally confused” and a “new welfarist.”

Theirs is a one-way-street model of education which is ultimately based on strict social controls. This is why they can never get more than 30 people actively and regularly involved at any given time. Whenever they set up a forum, they first work out how to exclude people rather than welcome them. Their apparent insistence in employing systemic social control mechanisms seems to demand the inclusion of only a small number of adherents. In effect, then, they are an anti-movement faction, and they cannot hope for, nor seemingly desire, a mass movement which inevitably would contain diverse and dissenting voices. I’d suggest that they actually like their marginalised position and the freedom they believe it gives them to snipe from the sidelines. Although they regularly seem interested in addressing animal advocates, and they sometimes use "we" language, "the abolitionists" often claim not to be part of the existing animal movement. They often claim that "the general public" are much more open to their message than are the "people in the animal movement" (see Francione's podcast with Rob Johnson). This begs the question as to why they waste so much time with people they see no hope in and why, more importantly, they have failed to build a pretty large movement of their own from this very receptive audience that they claim to have. In truth, they know they must speak to people in the existing movement, they just do not know how to.

For them to make a mark in the prevailing movement means talking to animal advocates and not merely lecturing. They need to find ways around the obvious blocks that exist preventing their message being heard. In the internet age, they cannot claim that powerful movement gatekeepers are capable of maintaining their marginalised status. They are marginalising themselves by, for example, not participating in forums such as ARZone. Ironically, due to their inability to educate – for education requires the ability to listen as well as talk – they would quickly make themselves unpopular in such forums and, indeed, regularly seem to: there are recent reports that some “abolitionists” regard being banned from other groups’ FB pages, for example, as a positive “achievement.”

Sorry to say – but they also lie a lot and are not really interested in the truth. When they have decided something – especially if they decide that someone is a new welfarist – then that is what that person is, period. The fact that such persons do not fit into their blueprint of “new welfarist,” and instead correspond to their own model of “abolitionist,” does not matter in the slightest.

I have recently been challenged to a debate by Gary Francione, which he suggested he could arrange to be chaired by Gary Steiner, author of some wonderful books on human-nonhuman relations. I have accepted.

It came to my attention, however, that “an abolitionist” forum contained false claims by two of its most prominent members suggesting that I had ignored Francione’s challenge (he himself taunting and mocking on FB that I had run away from him). When a member of this forum pointed out that I had indeed accepted the debate, she claims that her post was deleted so that members could not see it, and she was warned by one of the moderators about such postings. Disgraceful behaviour in my view - but apparently not untypical, sadly.

I have recently written to Professor Gary Steiner – cc’d to Professor Gary Francione – confirming my availability for the event but have heard nothing back from either of them. Perhaps they are busy?

27 comments:

Anonymous said...

Just a suggestion: try and stay away from saying things like "They lie a lot" if you want people to take you seriously.

Not fit for purpose? said...

This blog post isn't fit for purpose.

Anonymous said...

Yep, sums up the 'couldn't educate out of a paper bag' argument for this lot of screechers. The philosophy I agree with. Crazy eh? As you say; the delivery is atrocious. Here the messengers need shooting!

Carolyn Bailey said...

Thank you, Roger, for being honest and thoughtful enough to finally tell the truth about a small and insignificant group of incredibly vocal and violent people.

So many people insist that others should speak out about this destructive distraction, but so few are courageous enough, or knowledgable enough to do so.

I applaud your ability to think critically, and speak the truth!

I will sign this comment with my real name because I am not hiding behind a cult or shameful of my honesty.

Carolyn Bailey
AKA Sky Church ... etc

Anonymous said...

Well said, and it bears repeating.

Mandy said...

Hear hear, Carolyn, I concur. BTW, that third comment above was mine.

It didn't have my name on it because it was the first time posting on Dr Yates blog and I didn't quite understand the account name options!

Mandy Barlow

Anonymous said...

Thank you for the post.

I wish we all could get rid of the emotional tension and discuss issues/comment each other as diplomatic and constructive as possible.

Anonymous said...

Telling it like it is, as always. The Cult of Francione's 'World is Vegan' campaign is the crowning embarrassment on their inept efforts at outreach. They can't even communicate effectively with people who already agree with many of the fundamentals of their position, let alone the world.

Like the other anon, I didn't care for the 'They lie a lot' line, because I don't know if they're lying as such or it's just yet another manifestation of their uncritical cultish dogmatism, but this is just a small quibble with an overwhelmingly spot-on piece of truth-telling.

Shelly said...

Thanks Roger for all your valuable thoughts on the issue of animal rights. Yourself, Tim Carolyn & Kim in no particular order have always helped me in my quest for enlightenment and to make informed choices when it comes to any advocacy action I am considering.That and of course my personal conscience.Michelle Statham

Jo Tyler said...

Interesting post. Regardless of how "right" we may be, when our delivery is more successful at alienating and offending existing vegans than it is at creating new ones, perhaps it's time to reevaluate.

Roger Yates said...

Anonymous said, "Thank you for the post. I wish we all could get rid of the emotional tension and discuss issues/comment each other as diplomatic and constructive as possible."

I agree with this sentiment. We need to develop a tradition in the animal advocacy movement of talking to one another in order to educate and evolve. Constructive engagement does not mean that one is promoting another, or somehow endorsing their view. Some appear to think that unless interaction is aggressively oppositional then it will be misunderstood as the adoption of other's perspective.

Ward Chanley said...

Parts of Francione's critique are apt, but I agree with Yates' position that the parts that are worthwhile tend to get drowned out by various means of presentation.

We have to pick our battles; at this point, I've come to feel that the animal welfare movement isn't the low-hanging fruit. This will doubtless strike some folks as blatantly obvious, and perhaps it is, but it's taken me a while to see it. Francione is right that the animal welfare movement is selling indulgences, essentially, but the problem is that the 'Abolitionist Approach' is - as I see it - spending all of its time making just that point...over and over and over again.

PythagoreanCrank said...

Francione is good at arguing so if you do debate him watch out for his trump card of "Zero sum game, ZERO SUM GAME!". Heh.

Anonymous said...

Word on the street is that Francione declined to debate you. What's up with that? I would have never suspected he would back down after all the taunting and tough talk on Facebook. Perhaps he ran off the second you showed up : )

Ante Bozanich said...

Haven't I told you a few times that I have a great respect for you, Roger?

Bea Elliott said...

Although I believe in the basic groundwork that GF provided - And I learned a lot of what was required to voice the abolitionist position... The tactical end of AA was quite off-putting. Intimidating and rude. And this was towards a fellow advocate.

I was always disappointed by the marginalization of anyone who did not fit the mold's constraints or who challenged any part of the "approach's" mantra. So, like many - I moved on and found my own way - without.

But you Roger... I have always had the highest respect for. I always felt you were the best part of the former AA "ideal". I'm not surprised at all that you have so much support from others that feel the same way too.

Al said...

Roger, could you point me to the specific Facebook discussion that led to this post? Thanks.

Alicia Sangineti said...

thank yor Roger... I think you are right

Carolyn Bailey said...

For the benefit of all readers, the Facebook conversation which was a small part of this, is available here:

https://www.facebook.com/ButterfliesVeganAdvocate/posts/299145440113880?cmntid=302072706487820

I would encourage everyone to read through the comments here and draw their own conclusions.

Roger Yates said...

Yes, the "lie a lot" phrase mayn't have been the best to choose, although that has been my experience I'm sorry to report. In terms of the context in this blog entry, I am disturbed that Sky's comment were deliberately deleted by the moderator in order to keep the truth from Vegan:UK members.

From conversations with Sky, I know she has been worrying about new people joining this group and being given flawed information about other animal advocates. The site does, for example, contain gross misrepresentations of ARZone, with Francione himself suggesting that ARZone and the animal user industries are working in "partnership" together.

That kind if statement may seem ludicrous and laughable to most but what about any "new" vegan joining this group and therefore immediately exposed to distortion and misrepresentation? Indeed, I think such concerns explains why several people have apparently been prepared to reveal the content of this "closed group" (although the idea of a closed Internet group is one that raises the eyebrows in the first place).

RY

Roger Yates said...

@Ward Chanley. I agree that the focus on the animal welfare movement is rather odd. It is, however, bound to be a part of the Francione approach, for the reasons you suggest.

"The Abolitionists" really ought to be far too busy just now to be able to go after this target. Far too busy if what they claim is true. Francione, Johnson, and now Collins in her recent podcast, have all suggested that there is a remarkably receptive public "out there" who "get" the Abolitionists' message far more readily than the welfarists do. These people seem gagging to be told the good news about veganism, casting off leather belts and shoes as they troop off to the vegan store.

So why concentrate for ~a single second~ on the most difficult audience, if this worldwide phenomenon is taking off. With this suggested level of receptivity, the Abolitionist movement will quickly grow to the size that can rival the existing animal advocacy movement. By being successful in this way - by demonstrating this "better way" to "getting" vegans - welfarists soon jump ship and join The Abolitionists.

If they concentrated on their "easy" receptive audience, and therefore rapidly swell the numbers of Abolitionist vegans, then the currently less receptive audience will soon fall into line.

If their claims were true, how come they have ~any~ time to waste on FB and podcasts, when giving out their vegan cupcakes and the Boston Vegan Association literature (the product of a DONATION, btw, Elizabeth - dirty - dirty) would result in "The World is Vegan" becoming a reality?

Carolyn Bailey said...

I think I may have given the link to the wrong Facebook discussion in my earlier comment.

The link I previously gave was to the Facebook discussion in which Gary Francione challenged Roger to a debate and Roger accepted. The link Roger was referring to in his essay in regard to his reply to Tim Gier is this one:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/arzone/10150500022496457/?notif_t=group_activity

Ward Chanley said...

Well. Not to be snarky, but I have a hard time seeing that there's a hugely receptive audience out there, so I doubt those claims, honestly -- but sure, I take that point: if that audience really was out there, it would make far more sense to spend the majority of one's time reaching and advocating to that audience.

Roger Yates. said...

@Ward. Thanks for that. Personally I hope that this audience is "out there" as receptive as suggested. No-one will mind, I'm sure, if it turns out that there is a huge explosion of ethical vegans, and Elizabeth Collins did suggest that the Abolitionist Movement is not only unstoppable but also a global phenomenon. I hope she's right! But it does, once more, create that question of why anyone would allow themselves to be diverted from this audience in order to address a "new welfarist audience" who, apparently, find it hard to understand the idea of animal rights and veganism, despite many being vegans. All rather odd.

Ward Chanley said...

I don't mean to sound defeatist, here, but we're what? A percent or two of the population at most? We've been a percent or two of the population for years; Francione's approach seems to be rooted in some frustration that the scales aren't magically falling from as many eyes as he'd like to claim, I think. (Then again, I'm purely speculating, so that may not be worth terribly much. I wouldn't be the first time I was dramatically wrong about the man.)

Rico said...

Hi Roger. Good points for discussion. As you say, 'I think there is a lot of merit in Francione’s position about the property status of other animals.' But there does seem to be a serious issue alienating people.

I believe the criticism of welfare is valid, as Ward suggests. However i believe Ward is mistaken that GF is 'johnny one note' on welfare.

He's made a number of other contributions that i think tend to get forgotten or overlooked eg the property status of animals, the importance of veganism rather than vegetarianism, the theme of abolition, his own rights formulation (there are others of course), problems with SICs.

Even so, there is a repetition of certain themes, but i wonder if it would be accepted more readily if people felt less threatened. It seems reasonable to me to disagree with positions, and disagree repeatedly, provided that's done without abuse or belittling.

Repetition is also a vital educational tool. Not everyone has been with the conversation for a long time. People may find it easier to 'get' this nuance, rather than that. Not everyone 'gets' it first time round. Not everyone 'gets' a topic after hearing about it once.

And after all, i believe part of the reason for whatever success GF has had is his dogged commitment to expressing his position. I admire that commitment.

How else are you going to create change, both in organisations and society, unless you persist in what you believe in? Few people are more persistent than GF.

I also admire his commitment to speak and debate with others, and i'd certainly be very keen to hear a debate between you two.

All that said, to return to your main theme, it's a good question for GF and those who believe in his work to ask: are we delivering this message in the most effective way? Would being more charitable at times - and this doesn't mean agreeing or accepting other arguments you disagree with - allow us to be more influential?

timgier said...

Hi Roger,

Thanks for writing and publishing this. You've said what needs to be said, and I hope that by doing so you've given other people the strength to speak out as well. Human beings are curious creatures, and it is often the case that we won't speak our minds until someone else has spoken their's first, breaking the ice so to speak. I know, from the emails and other messages I've received, that many people have felt how you feel but have thought, given the prominence of Francione, that those feelings must not be legitimate. We do tend to defer to authority figures, and Francione certainly likes to assert his authority!